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How good is Clemson really?

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Re: How good is Clemson really?

Postby MikeTheTiger » January 10th, 2019, 8:57 pm

Dubby wrote:Exactly the game I saw Clemson was hammering Bama in that 3rd Qtr mainly

Tua had 21.5 QBR

I added up some meaningless Bama stats after the was no longer in doubt.

I rewatch the show they FR WR put on just gets better

Given what Bama was doing to team all year makes this all the more impressive

I'll not let someone pick apart what I saw and make light of it


Bama had 225 yards of offense in the first quarter. They punted the ball only once before their last possession. There was no late racking up of meaningless yards. In fact, they barely had the ball at all in the 4th quarter. Clemson dominated Bama on the other side of the ball, but they really didn't stop Bama's offense.

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Re: How good is Clemson really?

Postby Iconoclast » January 10th, 2019, 10:12 pm

*YNC* MikeTheTiger wrote:
Iconoclast wrote:
*YNC* MikeTheTiger wrote:Bama's possessions were Pick-6, TD, TD, FG, INT after driving into Clemson territory, Punt, End of Half, Fake FG, Turnover on Downs at the Clemson 11, Turnover on Downs at the Clemson 9 (after getting to the 1), 3-and-out. I don't see any long stretch where they weren't threatening to score. I see a team that dug themselves a big hole with some mistakes, then they pressed too much to get back into it and didn't finish drives because they were desperate. Clemson won because they didn't make mistakes and made some incredible plays, which is not an immaterial part of the game, but I agree with bob that it isn't really domination either. They are not 28 points better than Bama. They didn't even play 28 points better than Bama in that game without a few breaks. The game easily could have been 21-7 in favor of Bama at the beginning of the second quarter and the outcome might have been different.


... INT after driving into Clemson territory, Punt, End of Half, Fake FG, Turnover on Downs at the Clemson 11, Turnover on Downs at the Clemson 9 (after getting to the 1), 3-and-out.

Six straight possessions and an entire half with no score is not a long stretch?




You said they went a long stretch without threatening to score. I'd say that getting into Clemson territory on 4 of 5 drives, into the red zone 3 of 5 times and inside the 10 twice in that stretch (excluding letting the clock run out at the end of the first half) was threatening to score.



"I saw long stretches, specifically the final half to 2/3 of a game, where Alabama really didn't threaten to score, certainly not a TD." - I guess I don't recall them being in position to put six on the board. Clemson had them handled in the red zone. Venables played them to move the ball but tightened up as they got close. Please note that I said "certainly not a TD." Not sure why you can't just admit that it was a dominant win by Clemson.
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Re: How good is Clemson really?

Postby MikeTheTiger » January 10th, 2019, 10:36 pm

Iconoclast wrote:I saw long stretches, specifically the final half to 2/3 of a game, where Alabama really didn't threaten to score, certainly not a TD." - I guess I don't recall them being in position to put six on the board. Clemson had them handled in the red zone. Venables played them to move the ball but tightened up as they got close. Please note that I said "certainly not a TD." Not sure why you can't just admit that it was a dominant win by Clemson.


You don't call having second-and-goal at the 1 being in a position to put six on the board? They also fell a yard shy of picking up first-and-goal on one of their other drives. I would say that was also a fairly credible threat to put six on the board. Clemson was very good in red zone defense all season, so they certainly deserve credit. I just think you overstated the case a bit. Bama got to the one twice with only 3 points to show for it. That was a little bit Clemson, a lot poor execution (one false start that I really didn't see on replay), and some randomness. Like bob said, a Pick-6 has a lot of randomness to it and, as he said, Clemson winning the turnover battle was not consistent with their performance for the year as a whole and more about luck than some inherent quality on their part. Two plays and a missed extra point were the difference between Bama up 21-7 at the beginning of the 2nd quarter versus only 16-14. The entire complexion of the game would have been different at that point. Clemson would have been tighter and Alabama not as frustrated. I'm not saying that Alabama is the better team or that they would have, could have or should have won. I'm just saying that a few key plays that had a bit of luck and randomness took what could have been a much tighter game and turned it into a blowout. Clemson played an amazing game and Bama did not. They dominated the scoreboard, which is what counts.

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Re: How good is Clemson really?

Postby Dubby » January 11th, 2019, 12:02 am

*YNC* MikeTheTiger wrote:
Dubby wrote:Exactly the game I saw Clemson was hammering Bama in that 3rd Qtr mainly

Tua had 21.5 QBR

I added up some meaningless Bama stats after the was no longer in doubt.

I rewatch the show they FR WR put on just gets better

Given what Bama was doing to team all year makes this all the more impressive

I'll not let someone pick apart what I saw and make light of it


Bama had 225 yards of offense in the first quarter. They punted the ball only once before their last possession. There was no late racking up of meaningless yards. In fact, they barely had the ball at all in the 4th quarter. Clemson dominated Bama on the other side of the ball, but they really didn't stop Bama's offense.


You just put hole in your own argument they had 218 yards offense for the rest of the game including the huge passing play before they pulled Tua over 1/3 of came on that play

They got shut out in the 2nd half so I stick with my same account compared to the way they were bulldozing teams all season

This was beat down

I still find it odd you continue to point out ND losing defensive star and have not once mentioned Clemson doing this without Trevor Lawrence a projected 1st rounder top 10-15 pick

A 300 pounder All American reeking havoc all season high many teams draft boards

That why I continue to call it impressive Bama couldn't control Wilkins without Lawrence in there
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Re: How good is Clemson really?

Postby MikeTheTiger » January 11th, 2019, 12:18 pm

Dubby wrote:You just put hole in your own argument they had 218 yards offense for the rest of the game including the huge passing play before they pulled Tua over 1/3 of came on that play


They had pretty much no yards in the fourth quarter because Clemson held the ball for 10 minutes on the last drive. That was more about the offense keeping Bama's offense off the field (and the Bama defense giving up) than it was about the Clemson defense stopping Bama. That doesn't change the fact that Bama only punted once prior to their final drive when they put in Hurts.

Dubby wrote:I still find it odd you continue to point out ND losing defensive star and have not once mentioned Clemson doing this without Trevor Lawrence a projected 1st rounder top 10-15 pick

A 300 pounder All American reeking havoc all season high many teams draft boards

That why I continue to call it impressive Bama couldn't control Wilkins without Lawrence in there


You're still not understanding my point. I'm not making excuses for Bama and I'm not in slightest trying to suggest that Bama is a better team. The fact that Bama was able to move the ball as well as they did could very well have been a result of Lawrence's absence. I wasn't trying to address why they were able to move the ball, only point out that they did.

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Re: How good is Clemson really?

Postby bob » January 11th, 2019, 4:11 pm

MikeTheTiger wrote:
bob wrote:Clemson won handily on the scoreboard. They did not dominate on the field. Their win against Bama was nothing like the thrashing they administered to Notre Dame. They are likely better than Alabama, but the outcome would be nowhere near certain if they were to play again.


Clemson had 7 long drives out of 10 possession against Bama. Only 5 of 13 possessions against ND went for more than 50 yards (excluding the end of game possession). 3 of those came during the second quarter when Julian Love was out hurt. Absent that injury, I'm not sure I would conclude that Clemson was any more dominant against ND than they were against Bama. It's just the side of the ball where there were some breaks and some luck was different.


I was referring to general dominance. Clemson had a serviceable offense against Notre Dame, while Notre Dame was hopeless against Clemson. Presuming that their game was not a complete outlier, it would take a truly uncharacteristic performance on both teams' part for Notre Dame to win a rematch.

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Re: How good is Clemson really?

Postby bob » January 11th, 2019, 4:35 pm

Iconoclast wrote:That pick six, and the other interception, weren't the result of poor play by Alabama, it was the result of Clemson seeing tendencies and putting in a great game plan which exploited those tendencies. I saw long stretches, specifically the final half to 2/3 of a game, where Alabama really didn't threaten to score, certainly not a TD. To me, that was a beat down because while Bama made some plays here and there during the second half, they never had any sustained momentum and didn't bust any wide open plays. Don't know what anyone else thinks, but that was a humiliated team when it ended. And hey, I was on the Bama bandwagon all year long, I thought they would breeze to the title. We all play the "who beat who and by how much" game when we come up with rankings, but you don't know who really is better until teams meet head to head.


Pick sixes don't get planned. Certainly, good planning can increase the chance of them happening, but getting one isn't proof that there would be a repeat in a rematch or in the case where the game had played slightly differently.

At some point, Alabama accepted that they weren't going to come back against Clemson. They were far enough behind and they had repeatedly failed to score in the red zone. Up until that point of realization, Alabama was very capable of moving the ball down the field, which made them a threat to come back. I was rooting for Clemson to win and did not feel confident about that outcome until Clemson found a running game in the 4th quarter and started using some clock. Yes, Bama was demoralized by the end, but that was more a realization that they weren't catching any breaks and couldn't score enough to win the game, not that they couldn't match up against Clemson.

If you think that a team getting inside the 25 3 times in a row isn't a threat to score, then you definitely have a different view than I do.

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Re: How good is Clemson really?

Postby Dubby » January 11th, 2019, 5:57 pm

MikeTheTiger wrote:
Dubby wrote:You just put hole in your own argument they had 218 yards offense for the rest of the game including the huge passing play before they pulled Tua over 1/3 of came on that play


They had pretty much no yards in the fourth quarter because Clemson held the ball for 10 minutes on the last drive. That was more about the offense keeping Bama's offense off the field (and the Bama defense giving up) than it was about the Clemson defense stopping Bama. That doesn't change the fact that Bama only punted once prior to their final drive when they put in Hurts.

Dubby wrote:I still find it odd you continue to point out ND losing defensive star and have not once mentioned Clemson doing this without Trevor Lawrence a projected 1st rounder top 10-15 pick

A 300 pounder All American reeking havoc all season high many teams draft boards

That why I continue to call it impressive Bama couldn't control Wilkins without Lawrence in there


You're still not understanding my point. I'm not making excuses for Bama and I'm not in slightest trying to suggest that Bama is a better team. The fact that Bama was able to move the ball as well as they did could very well have been a result of Lawrence's absence. I wasn't trying to address why they were able to move the ball, only point out that they did.


The way the Bama front had issues with blocking Wilkins IMO, they would have been in world of hurt had Lawrence played.

I believe it bears watching that Saban coming into this game had lost 20 assistant over the years. Now Locksley OC is going to HC at Maryland and Randy Key is leaving for Georgia Tech

They may not fall off a cliff. But, when see a WR like Justyn Ross from Bama own backyard go to Clemson because of the Environment (Scuttlebutt is Clemson appeared to be family while Bama was more like a Business)

When does this revolving door on losing coaches start to hurt? 22 and counting has too after awhile.
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Re: How good is Clemson really?

Postby Griff » January 11th, 2019, 10:13 pm

Dubby wrote:
When does this revolving door on losing coaches start to hurt? 22 and counting has too after awhile.


Bama W/R coach Josh Gattis also left for Michigan. (And Michigan is very excited about that)

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Re: How good is Clemson really?

Postby MikeTheTiger » January 11th, 2019, 11:02 pm

bob wrote:I was referring to general dominance. Clemson had a serviceable offense against Notre Dame, while Notre Dame was hopeless against Clemson. Presuming that their game was not a complete outlier, it would take a truly uncharacteristic performance on both teams' part for Notre Dame to win a rematch.


Yes, from the perspective, it is much less likely for a team to lose when they give up only 3 points than it is for them to lose when they score 44. I was thinking about it more from a margin of victory perspective. With a few breaks going differently the margin might have shrunk to one or two scores in both cases, but not really into the danger zone in the ND game.

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